Given the probation history of the Sports Racer classes in Nat'l racing, it probably is important that the C Sports community weighs in on this issue. It's not just about one kind of car in D Sports, it's about the National Comp Board and the newly granted authority of the Club Racing Technical Manager (see the most current FasTrack). Sounds like maybe the Club Racing Office and the Competition Board isn't really interested in the opinion of the C & D Sports competitors.
Ben Beasley
Unregistered User
(9/28/01 9:39 am)
Philip & New Cars
First let me say I have more to lose than anyone ,If C S/R goes away ,which I don't think it will anytime soon. I own 3 complete very competitive cars,and four more chassis that I plan on building into finished cars soon.I hope to sell all these cars and build more,sould be good for the class if anyone wants to drive a true , fast C S/R. I'm a member of the sports racer advisery comity,and see all sportsracer comp. board letters.To my knowledge you've never formally requested Homoligation of you car. I have not seen your car ,But technically any GT-3 could be classified as C S/R ,and any GT-4 as a D S/R ,if your thinking is strictly engine size and class numbers. It sure could add to class numbers ,on the other hand it would be rediculous.Sportsracers have always been true racecars built to the rules to be as fast and as competitive as posable,not a hodge podge of anything that fits to make bigger numbers , and help someone sell something that was never intended to meet the rules or be competitive.Maybe not popular esspecially with you but my opinion.
Re: Philip & New Cars
Ben
Would you see a homologation request as a SR comittee member? Did you see the request for the thunder roadster from 600 racing? Just asking for info here. What is your position on this car?
Any GT4 car would fit in DSR? Come on now, thats really pushing the envelope. Besides, GT4 runs 1600 CC motors, which would fit in C. I think you meant GT5 for D, and GT4 for C, those make more sense. However, construction wise, they do fit the SR rules.
Be careful about your definition of a sports racer as not being a hodge podge, or something not built to the rules to be competetive. The Diasio, and even the Radical, fit your description of not being built to the rules and thus not able to be competetive, and therefore, a sports racer. I think the recent runoffs results of the Radical in C and D prove this statement wrong. As a SR comittee member you need to check your comments before making them public.
Ben Beasley
Unregistered User
(9/28/01 2:11 pm)
C & D
No I don't see Homologation requests.I don't have an opinion I'd care to share with you , about the Thunder Roadster.Many GT-3 Cars Share the same engine rules with C S/R my appalagies if they don't all.Are you saying,if they meet the rules construction wise they sould be legal and allowed to run as a D or C.The Radical is built cose enough to the rules to be very competitive,a GT-3,4 or 5 is definitely not built close enough to the rules to be competitive in C or D. The Diasio Probably falls somewhere in between. If it looks like a sportsracer and meets the 120% Rule why not.As a human being you need to check your coments before making them public .My comments & Opinions are just that , Mine , your welcome to your's.
Re: C & D
Ben
The GCR provides no definition of what a SR should look like (the whole problem), so why is a non-rule like this being applied? Since you are on the SR comittee, what is going on with this?
Since you are not on the comp board, you will not see homologation requests. How can you say "To my knowledge you've never formally requested Homoligation of you car." and use that as a reason to not allow a car to be approved?
How does the 120% rule apply to approving a car for competetion? Nowhere in the application for SCCA approval does it ask who the driver will be. If I have an out of date design, dud motor, and a current F1 champion driver will the car be approved? Shouldn't make a difference, should it?
Ben Beasley
Unregistered User
(10/2/01 9:47 am)
C & D
Ted , please read what I wrote more carefully ,and many of your ranting question will be answered.I will put it on you ,I'm loking for input here. Please define for me what a sportsracer should be?You tell me then maybe I will jump all over any comments you have,but probably not becuase I can respect the fact that you have an opinion that maybe different than mine.
ted james
Unregistered User
(10/2/01 10:16 am)
SR rules
I think the point is this. The comp board has turned down several of my requests (and others) as "not in the spirit of the class". This "spirit of the class seems to be a moving target according to how they feel on that day. It is also a handy excuse to turn down something they don't like without explination. I have requested on 2 occasions that they write a statement in the first part of the SR rules stating what "the spirit of the class" is. I think this should state the goals of the class and a broad diffinition of what we want DSR/CSR to be. This would allow the comptetors to make request for changes within this frame work. I think if we knew what the "spirit of the class" was we could make a stab at defining a sports racer.
Re: SR rules
Ben
"jumping all over comments" isn't necessary here. I'm asking for clarification of your statements. How does the 120% rule apply to approval of a car in a class? If this is being used by the comp board, then members of the C and D community need to know this. As you are on the SR comittee, give us some insight into what the CB is doing. As Ted James asks, what is the "spirit of the class" in the minds of the CB?
Why won't you share your opinion of the thunder roadster? This has been a topic on this forum for quite some time? Is this the new "spirit of the class"?
I don't have a definition of what a SR should or should not look like, so in my mind the GTLite should be allowed in. I'm not alone in this decision. The CB seems to take a moving target approach to what a SR should or shouldn't be all the while participation numbers continue to dwindle, C in particular. Keep in mind that sports racers were derived from limited production cars, and some sports racers still use production car parts in their construction. My .02 cents.
I would imagine that if you are in the business of selling cars that having other (slower) new cars in the class would provide performance comparisons in your favor. Win on sunday, sell on monday. If your full blown C car beats them, and I'd be surprised if this didn't happen, your cars will sell like hotcakes.
Ben Beasley
Unregistered User
(10/2/01 1:36 pm)
What is a sportsracer
Frist let me say as a member of the advisory committee,the comp board has never asked me or the committee about anything.
I'm more than willing to try to represent sportsracer guys in anyway I can. But I think we where appointed (I was without even being asked) just so the comp. board could say they have a committee.
My point with mentioning the 120% rule was merely to say: Why submit a car that will only be an obstacle to other competitors?
I'm not saying who should define what cars might be somewhat competitive. But somewhere, someone has got to draw a line.So please tell me ,what should a sportsracer be?What is the spirit of the class in your mind? As far as the 600 roadster I have not looked at it much,and have not looked to see if it fits within the rules.
Why are you so interested in my opionion? So you can criticize it? I've been going to the run-offs since 1972 and have been around C & D S/R Since it was called G & H Modified. I remember Legands,Lotuses,Bobsy SR-1s thru SR-7s,NTMs,Royals,Lolas,Quasars,Ocelots,Merlyns,and many home builts. I don't ever recall anything in this part of the country being production derived or limited production derived ,please share which or what cars those where I can't think of any, and I'd love to know.
Edited to make this more readable. Bill Meyer
Edited by: SPORTRCR at: 10/2/01 2:49:26 pm
Re: What is a sportsracer
Ben
The GTlite car in question does meet your self imposed 120% rule. At watkins glen the DSR avg. is approx 2:00, with an average of 2:10-2:15. A GTLite has lapped it at 2:10 in stock form. These numbers were lifted off the thread in the DSR forum under "new cars in the class". If those numbers are true your argument doesn't hold water.
I'm sorry if you were drafted by the comp board. Since this is a club, if you went AWOL I don't think you would get thrown in the brig
I ask your opinion because as a representative for the class we should know what your thinking is on these issues. If you don't want to tell us, what are we supposed to think? I'm not criticizing your opinions. I applaud you for bringing this thread up on this forum. I would ask why other CSR drivers don't participate in this discussion, since it affects them as well. If you haven't looked at the thunder roadster, you should. Info is available over the net, and two of them were at the runoffs on display. Its basically a formula car with fenders and nerf bars on street radial tires. Now this car should be a slug/obstacle. I don't think the GTLite car will be any worse then the rolling chicane we call a shelby can-am.
When H Mod was the class, many of the sports racers used production pieces: Frames, whole suspension bits, etc were used. Those cars are all in vintage now. I heard one story about a fiat 600 with the roof cut off and a roll bar installed thrown together to win a championship. The Astech DSR built by Dale Tholen uses spitfire front uprights in the suspension. This car is hardly an obstacle even today, 30+ years after it was built.
I think the spirit of the class should be a run what you brung class. As long as it fits our minimal rules for engine size, weight, overall dimensions, and safety features, let them run with us. They might not be as fast as other cars, but somebody always has to be last. If they can accept the possibility that last place might be them, so what? If you don't give them the chance to run, we, and the SCCA, have lost a member and spokesman for the club. When the grids are full and overflowing, then we can afford to be picky, and the 120% rule will be used. Until then, whats the big deal?
What is a sportsracer
Im new to racing again. I started racing in 1972 for 5 years then quit. Im buying a car and not sure if I will run it in S2 or CSR. I have to side with Ben on this because of the way these cars seem to be built. They seem to be constructed more for Nascar style of driving where they talk about rubbing. A rub seems to be when the car is about six inches into your bumper. Strip away the 4130 chromemoly and put some aluminum crush boxes around them and cut the roof off and then lets take another look. I will be on a tight budget and wouldn't appreciate it if some slammed me and tore my car apart with minimal damage to theirs.
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