How can we increase participation in CSR?
Please share any and all ideas you have for increasing participation in CSR so that consolication with DSr becomes a moot issue.
I had three ideas before the well ran dry:
1) Give the Shelby competition adjustments (being considered by the Comp Board).
2) Give the Olds Pro competition adjustments (some granted by the Comp Board -- do they need more?)
3) Legalize the Ford 2 liter with limited preparation options, which would make it simpler for S2 owners to run CSR (not approved by the Comp Board).
John Mikes
Land O' Lakes Region
CSR #38
john.mikes@worldnet.att.net
One of the important items to know is *why* participation decreased in the first place.
How about going back through the previous few years results and finding out the names of those that are no longer participating. Then call those people and find out *why* they stopped racing. Once you know why, can work on fixing what these people perceive as broken.
(As a side benefit, you can find out what cars may be for sale, and attempt to broker those cars to new drivers who may want to run in CSR!)
Re: How can we increase participation in CSR?
I would try to find all the CSR legal cars hiding in garages, and ask the owners why they aren't running anymore. If it a lack of interest/time/money, maybe you can encourage them to sell the cars to folks that would like to run in the class, but don't have the time/$$ to build their own cars.
I believe I heard that many of the Shelby Can-Ams were sold to some country where they actually have an active series (somewhere in South America?) From what I've seen the Shelby CanAm doesn't need a lot of competition adjustment. The one or two west-coast cars I see are winning most of the CSR National races.
It may be that the barriers to entry for CSR are just too high (and your proposals, like the S2 hot-rod engine, are aimed at lowering those barriers).
Re: How can we increase participation in CSR?
And I thnk both of you had a great idea! Too weird.
I wasn't too suprised at the CB's rejection of the Ford idea. It had the danger of taking cars away from S2 and could be thought of as hurting one class to save another.
I heard about a third of the Shelbys are in South Africa. They've been rebodied and are running in a spec series.
John Mikes
Land O' Lakes Region
CSR #38
john.mikes@worldnet.att.net
max
Unregistered User
(7/24/00 4:20 pm)
participation
I would say the current participation numbers are as a result of a lack of cars available through the "trickle down" theory. Look at pro-super vee and how that affected the national ranks. Pro S2 etc.
were able to supply good cars to club racers as the pro cars became less competitive. Look at all of the F2000 cars in club racing now.
SCCA needs to help ACRL etc. to maximize participation in the pro series... to get the manufacturers involved, then after a few years we will see the national ranks swell. It won't be overnight.
Jay Messenger
Unregistered User
(7/25/00 10:32 am)
Increase Participation of ACRL legal Cosworth Cars
I think the efforts for the Olds Sports 2000 cars are fine but a little misplaced. The ACRL spec Cosworth car looks to me like it would be a better source for some increased participation. There are a good group of CSR legal Cosworth powered cars out there that are just as uncompetitive in CSR. These cars are being activily campaigned and kept up to very high standards. They are also continually being developed. Of course most are interested in the Pro Series which is now part of Grand American but SCCA can still benefit from these members. Most of them have their roots in SCCA and are still candidates for some "club" racing.
Re: Increase Participation of ACRL legal Cosworth Cars
The problem is that any increase in performance granted to ACRL cars, needs to be echo'ed in the ACRL rules. The good news is that ACRL rules are maintained by a pro-organization and can change pretty quickly as they see fit.
I think what makes an ACRL car a not-quite-competitive CSR car is:
- Horsepower: typical quoted values for the ACRL Cosworth are 180hp - 190hp. ACRL would have to adopt rules changes that would permit the power-level to be increased to the 220hp - 240hp level I believe. This would still be a more reliable power-plant than most CSR cars since it is based on a 2.0liter displacement, and would be less stressed. One thought would be to allow the engines to have fuel injection to improve the drivablity.
- Tires: ACRL cars use S2-sized tires, which are pretty small compared to the unlimited sizes permitted for other CSRs. Just allowing ACRL cars to use larger wheels/tires won't solve the problem, since the bodywork/suspension is designed around that wheel/tire combo. I don't know that there is anything that can reasonably be done to equalize the performance in this area.
I think that with a good driver, a 230hp ACRL car should be able to run Nationally competitive CSR times, even on the smaller tires. Even without the engines changes, an ACRL SuperSports2000 can run at the top of the current west coast national-level competition (because the turnout/preparation level is so low).
So, if you want to compete in CSR, I suggest picking up an ex-ACRL pro car, and learning to drive it. If you come up a little short, THEN work on encouraging the ACRL & SCCA CB to improve the engine performance through increased compression, fuel injection, etc.
Trickle-down cars.
Another thought is to provide CSR with a source of cars/engines that can be used as a base for a CSR car. (I know that's what John was proposing with his "allow hot-rod S2's in CSR" proposal.)
If the ACRL-Cosworth were a legal base engine for CSR, with some kind of limited prep (max compression ratio, intake restrictions), then you would find some older ACRL cars could be converted to CSR cars more easily (and you never know, the parts availabilty/pricing for the engines might improve as well). S2's interested in converting to CSR would start with one of these motors, and add CSR legal wings, and possibily tires, tunnels, etc.
I find the CSR engine eligibility rules seem fairly limited, particularly due to the small-displacement engines. These get really expensive to develop the high-end horsepower requried to run at the top. Maybe there should be a displacement/intake restrictor/minimum weight scale that would allow a wider variety of lower-cost, larger displacement engines to be adoped to CSR. Personally, I like the idea of taking a new (stock) 2 Liter Honda S2000 engine (240 hp), and putting it in modern sports racer chassis and going racing! Or a 2L Porsche boxer engine, or...
Bill Meyer
Unregistered User
(7/25/00 7:24 pm)
Increasing participation in CSR
It is easy to get the numbers up. Stop talking about it and get your car on the track or encourage/help someone with a CSR to get to the track and run a National race.
I couldn't afford either the time or money to go to a division that will get counted this year but I went to Nelson last weekend anyway (600 miles, horribly rough track, etc.). I will go to Brainerd if required.
Here's the challenge to all who read this: why don't you do the same: run ONE more race than you planned for this year.
Cen div will get counted for sure. NP probably will. NE, SW & SE are up in the air for the last 2 spots.
Lloyd Service
Unregistered User
(10/26/00 9:23 pm)
Increasing the number of cars
I'am Canadian and I'd love to come State Side and run the North East Nationals but I've not had any luck getting rules info for the Olds Pro motor from SCCA or anyone else for that matter. If the motor can be made reasonably competitive I'll be there.
The basic rules are in section F in the sports racer spec book. You'll need the Olds shop manual for the engine.
Drop me a line at mnilson@mcubed.on.ca. Next time I'm in Toronto, I'd like to see the car. I need a race car "pick me up" My Royale rp24 csr/dsr projects a mess on the shop floor!
Vince LaManna
Unregistered User
(10/27/00 7:48 am)
olds specs
Contact Bill Fralick, he has been racing an olds for a couple of years. wfralick@excelonline.com Look forward to seeing you and others at the track, we need to have people get there cars out there this year!
Regards,
Lloyd Service
Unregistered User
(10/27/00 2:09 pm)
Olds Pro
Mike and Vince:
Thanks for the help. I've telephoned SCCA and left a message for Sven Pruett to contact me about the sports racer spec book.
Thanks again and I will see you in the spring at the track.
Lloyd
Evil Hwake
Unregistered User
(10/29/00 10:06 am)
converted fords
One of the things that keeps me from road racing my converted FF sports racer is the engine. to take the english ford motor to a competitive level is very expensive, and not very reliable. if the english ford motors were allowed to increase beyond 1615cc they could be made more reliable and closer to competitive with the newer chassis and engine combinations.
After two seasons trying to get the chassis sorted out, and finally getting it to be cosistant I am now breaking motors, and have decided to go to a rotary as my old production based car never had any motor problems.
the cost is cheaper to convert than to build motor #3 from a ford. I have alot of experiance in swaps so for me it is not a big deal, but for alot of car owners that would be a very coplicated change. and if I had the original log book from my car I would not even consider the changes to the chassis. alot of converted cars are not being campained because the are not competitive with the newer chassis' and NO ONE wants to be blown away every time you go to the track
If the older fords were allowed to go up to 1800cc using the european blocks they would be more competitive with the newer engines and for the same basic cost of building a 1600cc.
I am probably way off base with my perspective of natioal issues but it is one of my pet peives that VW is allowed 1800cc and ford is not.
thanks for letting me ramble on,
Carl Somerton
racercarl@webtv.net
No one asked for it?
I suspect that no one has asked the Comp Board to classify the engine. Ask them and explain why it's a good idea. Give them as many details as you can.
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