New CSR-legal car from 600 racing
Speedvision recently posted an article about the new 600 Racing model designed for SCCA Road Racing, specifically the CSR class.
These cars are not the most beautiful, but perhaps it will bring in some more racers that want to go fast on the cheap.
Re: new csr
These cars are strait rear axels with unsutable a-arm front ends.They are basicly a legends car running gear and would be a safty problem on the track due to closing speeds.I would not buy one.Ron
New CSR
I bet that most buyers will not care about the cars performance relative to the reigning CSR cars. As with their other cars, once there are enough out there, they will race against each other, and eventually have their own class. It is something that the SCCA (and the CSR class), like it or not, desperately needs.
Re: New CSR
CS
Are you and your customers banking on when the SCCA will have a spec diasio class? Gimme a break, we have enough spec classes and don't need more. We have C and D for builders classes. If someone wants to build a car, great. If they want to mass produce it, like yourself, even better. If it doesn't go as fast due to design, change it and make it faster/more competetive instead of whining and complaining to SCCA until you have your own class. And even if you did have your own class, you would still be running with other classes within a group.
Ron, closing speeds are a fact of life. SF region puts E,F,G, and H production with GT1,2, and 3. I don't think SF is the only one. A GT1 Corvette on the track with an H prod Sprite is a disaster waiting to happen, I agree, and yet it exists. Making another group impacts the schedule and reduces track time. What to do? Myself and others don't have an easy answer. If you have one, share it.
Paul Netterstrom
Unregistered User
(8/21/01 9:35 pm)
slug
I drive a slug in CSR so I know one when I see one. They claim that the car weight is 1500lbs. My sports toyota weight is 1350w/o driver and it kills me. My motorcycle background will also tell you that the Yamaha 1200 motor is Dated. At least with the toyota motor you could put big dollars into it to get competitive power, but you are still 250lbs overweight. No money out there will bring the 1200 motor up to power for road racing, Drag is another story.
My 2 cents,
Paul
Did I mention anything about the Diasio car in my post? I didn't think so. To get your facts straight, and I hope you do, we have never petitioned the SCCA for a weight increase.
When I write on this, or any other racing board, I merely state the facts and my opinion. The fact is that 600 Racing has quite the famous backing, and having sold 3500+ Legends cars is proof that they can be successful. Another fact is that many people who do not have the time or knowledge to build a race car will jump at the 16k price tag of a race car.
My OPINION is if all their buddies buy cars (and it is more likely that this can happen at that price point), what do they care about overall finish when they are racing against their friends? Eventually, there will be enough cars for their own class. Get a large enough class, and there will be no other cars on the track. Get enough classes like it, and one has their own weekend at a race track.
I don't know you, but I fail to understand why you take every post personally, especially when I have not lifted a finger to bend the current DSR (or CSR) rules to our favor.
Re: "Spec" classes
CS
In some of your previous posts you very much so spoke for your customers. Its hard to know when you are speaking for them, or just yourself.
You can bet that after a while those 600 drivers running in CSR will start complaining when they aren't getting to the checker first. And if enough 600 drivers participate and get their own class and eventually their own group, how does that help CSR?
As for being personal, I'm not the one who has totally locked out SCCA running at the track you own because you couldnt have your way, am I?
Obviously, you have no clue as to the facts concerning the banning of the SCCA from Putnam Park, or you are as ignorant as the SCCA officials who caused their own ousting.
I will explain the situation as simply as possible, so that many of the people who are unaware of the facts, and the practice of the SCCA when it comes to safety.
Back in 1994, when the SCCA was nixed from Putnam Park, the SCCA officials did not see the reason for Red flags on all of the corners. In fact, it was not a National mandate. As you probably know, a red flag thrown means stop as quickly and safely as possible on the track. This flag exists to prevent a pileup on a corner somewhere on the track. If a Red flag only exists at the Start/finish line, then only those cars passing the start/finish line at that time will have the ability to stop on the track. If there is an incident ANYWHERE else on the track, drivers that have not passed the start/finish line will be unaware of a problem, and end up blocking a corner, causing a delay for safety vehicles to reach the corner and adding to the danger of the situation.
If you think that requiring the same safety standards that are held by every other form of racing, by every other sanctioning body is having it "my way", then you are correct. When we explained this to the SCCA officials, they wrote a letter to us, calling us outsiders who did not understand racing. This letter itself caused the SCCA's last season at Putnam Park.
A group that believes that racing for a 5 dollar trophy and an ego boost is above the safety of their drivers is not a group welcome at Putnam Park. I should think that every driver would feel the same way. Unfortunately, too many drivers have the "it cannot happen to me" attitude. As track owners at the Midwest's most frequently used road course, we have seen most things that can happen to a car and driver, and have imagined almost everything else that will eventually happen. With that in mind, we have made changes over the years, removing over 1200 feet of guardrail, installing gravel traps around the track, and allowing for more runoff room than any other track in the Midwest. In is unfortunate that members of the SCCA cannot race at Putnam Park, but dealing with arrogant SCCA officials is not a worthwhile task.
Re: 'Our way'
CS,
I applaud you for sticking to your guns and not putting up with the errogance that led to your exclusion of SCCA. I have served as race director for NASA for many event, and know the value of the red flag at each corner station.
However, I hope that you will have an open mind if/when the next round of hopefully reasonable SCCA leaders (the ones after the old boys' network dies off?) come by to talk with you again. It would be a shame to punish the larger group because of a foolish few. I would like to race at your track someday, with SCCA events being part of the options.
GCR 9.4.2.I RED (Solid Red) Display at EACH STATION and on the Starter's Stand...
My accesisble GCR collection only goes back to '97, but I can't recall a change in this wording since I started flagging in '89. IN Wash. DC Region, we used a red at every station, we threw practice reds during drivers schools, and, since comm was via radio, all red-colored cars were known as 'crimson' over the radio.
Rumor has it that Reds at every station is a Connecticut state law (Lime Rock). While the San Francisco Region stewards won't call for a red, my understanding is that the flag is at every station.
I can't imagine that this was an issue. Perhaps the red flag is just a red herring?
Red Flags
Imagine or not, I have letters from the SCCA explaining that red flags on all corners were not mandated nationally, and it was up to the individual regions to decide how they run their regional races.
Regardless, you are somewhat correct; it was not the red flag situation alone that caused the ousting of the SCCA, it was (and is) the SCCA "officials'" attitudes that helped the decision.
Every available weekend from March through November is booked with events at Putnam Park, with a substantial waiting list. Without exception, each event is an annual one, that repeats- most groups have been coming since 1991. Even if we were to consider allowing the SCCA back, there would only be room for a February or Mid-December event.
Re: New CSR
Getting back to the original idea here, CS is right about getting new cars in. By the way, they're called GP Roadsters, they were developed by Elliot Forbes-Robinson, and you can read about them at 600Racing's website. Let's worry about them creating their own class later. It'll be 5 years before they get the numbers. Right now, we need to worry about the next 12-24 months. If we don't get CSRs on the track RIGHT NOW, the GP Roadster issue will be a moot point. There either will be NO CSR class, or it will be made up entirely of GP Roadsters.
You don't need to look very far to find rolling chicanes already within the CSR class. THAT is the problem with a "technology" class. The differential between the "haves and the have nots" will always be great. I've seen CSRs (and DSRs) that can't keep up with SRFs, so the rolling chicane argument doesn't fly.
If there is someone out there willing to build a safe, reasonably fast CSR legal car, price it at $16,995, and market it to young entry level racers, then I say go for it. We need cars, we need drivers, and we need to get young blood into the sport in general and CSR in particular.
Re: New CSR
Here's a thought: get a good used, running RT5 backmarker in FA for $8-14,000, buy a body from Beasley (budget about $5000), throw in $1-2000 for rim sections (hopefully the Ralt has modular wheels), plumbing and incidentals. Take 2-4 serious weekends and build a near or at the front of the pack CSR for under $20,000.
Re: New CSR
That is the whole point. Buy, build, modify, fabricate, tune, set up, etc. Like it or not, not everybody out there has the skills (or the budget to buy the skills) to do all of that. That's why we need some kind of turnkey car that can run CSR. Call them cannon-fodder for the fast guys, but get them on the track. I'm not pushing the GP Roadster, it's just that nobody else is building an affordable turnkey package where a driver can buy it Wednesday and be on the track Saturday. 600 Racing has the marketing savvy, and the distribution network to make this work. When that Ralt chassis needs replacement parts, where does the driver go? When the supply of "good used" Ralt chassis drys up, where will the growth come from then?
We've got people suggesting running Miatas as CSRs, we've got people trying to talk DSRs into running CSR (and offering to pay the entry fee) just to get the numbers up. That sounds pretty desperate to me, and desperate times sometimes require desperate actions. Why should SRF be the only National class that consistantly attracts newcomers? Why can't CSR get some of that action?
Re: New CSR
Yes we are somewhat desparate at the end of the year here. It's easier to stay off probation than to jump through the hoops to get off probation as we did 2 years ago.
I have to disagree about the viability of having 'slugs' on the track to help the numbers. The powers that be allowed Shelby's and WSR's to run as CSR's even though they either didn't fit the intent of the rules (Shelby) or were known to be fairly slow (WSR's) compared to most of the cars in the class. This did help the numbers in the short term.
Former Olds-Pro cars are close and have recently been given some competition adjustments but still don't measure up to the top cars (except in the rain). Most of these competitors (Shelby, WSR, Olds-Pro) have chosen to go somewhere else in the long run: at some point in time, you get tired of being cannon fodder.
What's my point?
CSR is/can be very similar to DSR: a haven for the tinkerer, iconoclast, etc. Some of the competitors who have the resources (in ANY class) can/will always buy or rent their cars rather than assemble or fabricate. It is a class where you can be different, go pretty damn fast, do it on a big or small budget and have some fun or whatever your needs may be. The most important thing is to build a base of competitors who run enough so we never have to worry about the numbers thing again.
Last item: you are also correct about the availability of RT5 parts. They are getting scarce. That happens to any limited production chassis. The upside is everything can be fabricated fairly easily except maybe the uprights and I know a small machine shop that could do those if/when it is necessary. Bottom line, I don't think the current scarcity of parts is a problem (if it was, I wouldn't be building a new RT5 based CSR).
Question(s) for the masses: 1) if you have a CSR, did you run 4 or more races this year? 2) Did you race or run a race in a division that gets counted?
My personal answers: No: got tired of being a slug and sold the car. 2) yes: made the tow to Mid-Ohio (got lapped twice) just to get counted.
Long winded again but I think it is very important for those of us now in the class to beat our own drum and get more competitors on the track.
Re: New CSR
No argument from me about getting existing cars out on the track. But you also keep giving good reasons to support a spec-type racer. Spend weeks (months, years) in the garage to build or convert to CSR specs, with no guarantee that you'll be remotely competitive. At least with a turnkey racer, the weeks/months/years part of the equation goes away.
I don't know what the answer is... I have a real problem with the way sanctioning bodies create and then abandon racing classes. I'm of the archaic notion that if a man (or woman) goes to the trouble of building and maintaining a car, then the sanctioning body that provided the original impetus should continue to support that car. I just don't want to see CSR go away.
Re: New CSR
Well, get ready. I just looked at 600 Racing's website, and they are offering the GP Thunder Roadster for sale as APPROVED FOR SCCA CSR racing, at a price of $14,995
Re: New CSR
Um, I just went to the thunderroadster page and see nothing indicating it has been approved, homologated, whatever, to run as a CSR by SCCA. Where exactly did you see "APPROVED FOR SCCA CSR racing"?
It looks like a formula car with nerf bars.
Re: New CSR
Here is a cut-and-paste directly from their own website
GP Thunder Roadster
The new GP Thunder Roadster is now available. It is SCCA approved and ready for the track of your choice. Don't miss this great opportunity - the first 50 GP Thunder Roadsters will be sold at $14,995 a piece!!
Call Jason at (704) 455-3896 x 213 for more information.
Read more about the GP Thunder Roadster at LowesMotorSpeedway.com
I went on to their home page, clicked on the "The New GP Thunder Roadster" text in the center of the page.....The Thunder Roadster is an open wheeler, but they added some fenders, called it a "GP" Thunder Roadster, claim that it is a replica of 50s -era GP cars, and Voila, CSR. The blurb above does not specify CSR, but if you go into the GP Thunder Roadster page (just follow the Loews Motor Speedway link), it states in the ninth paragraph that they were heading to CSR.
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