Souped up old S2000's
I think that we could get alot of older S2's out of the garages if they could hop-up thier motors a little to be closer to the mazda's and the cosworths. Something like free cams, and compression, new carbs, Electronic ignitions. Basically simple tricks.
That was requested last year by John Mikes. It was turned down. The Comp Board want's to hold the displacement down in CSR (although they allow a 2L ACRL car to race as a CSR, the engine specs limit it to about 175 HP).
John Senini
Unregistered User
(7/12/01 9:51 am)
its the "although"
so if a 2L ACRL car is OK why not a 2L ford pinto motor with a new cam and a little more compression? I guess I just didnt follow the comp board issue much. I have met 3 guys with mid 80's s2000's who like the idea and would participate if they were allowed a little more freedom in the rules.
Re: its the "although"
That was my point -- I have been unable to see any logic in the comp board decision -- unless they are worried about a 270 hp 2L showing up.
I just wanted to give you the history, and what you might expect. What new information you could bring to a comp board proposal is the names of 3 racers ready to go if you give them unlimited cams, and max compression ratio of x.
Good Luck!
John Senini
Unregistered User
(7/13/01 11:21 am)
CSR engine Power
What is the current information to how much power the current range of CSR Motors Provide?
S2
A few years back, I put a Haltech FI system on an SCCA legal S2 engine. The dyno said we made just under 170hp without playing with the fuel maps a great deal. My guess is 175hp could be had with a little tuning.
With parts scarcity being what it is, using the old Ford 2.0L may not prove beneficial. However, using a rather simple and commercially available FI system does make sense. No longer the worry of too lean to make power. The engines will make hp without the worry of a melt down and last longer to boot. The cost of a complete FI system runs about $3500 complete.
Injection vs. Carbs
Do you think it was the individual runner intake that gave you the horsepower boost? Since fuel injection by itself really just improves throttle response, I suspect individual-runner carbs would be capable of similar increases to fuel injection with the right intake manifold.
Still, it seems like a cam change would be required to reach 170 hp.
CSR engine power
David: You are correct, FI will generally not make more hp than properly set up carbs (multiple) but it will give much better fuel distribution at all rpm's hence, better driveability. I think the increase in hp was due mainly to efficiencies gained over the restrictive 2v carb of a legal S2 induction. You are also correct about 175hp being substantially shy of a competitive CSR engine. However, if the venerable pinto 2.0L engine were to be allowed with modifications, it will be possible to get 225-240 hp out of it in FI configuration. I have built such an engine for another venue and it was quite impressive (reliable, too!). Once again, cost becomes the issue. To get that much power from the old girl would cost over $12K if you use the right parts. Of course, the same could be said for a number of better engines.
Re: CSR engine power
John Goodman says that you could get 220-240 HP out of a 2l pinto motor, but only after spending $12K.
So, why bother? You can get a reliable 240-250HP out of the Mazda Rotary for roughly half that amount. I'd bet that the Motorcycle motors are also up there in the next 2 years at about the same cost as the Mazda.
CSR engine power
Jack: I agree about the futile use of any S2 Ford 2.0L engine in CSR. Anyway you look at it, it just isn't practical . As for MC engines reaching over 225hp, I remember Hasty Horn's admonition that MC engines will get lighter and less reliable after modification. We already see evidence of this with current generation MC engines. They make outstanding hp within their design parameters. Too many modifications outside of those parameters and you build a silver bullet (as it boom!). I still maintain that someone with more money than common sense will eventually build a purpose-built turbo engine in 850cc (CSR) or 620cc (DSR) to deliver 300 and 245hp respectively. IMHO, both engine will have usable torque in excess of anything normally aspirated.
John
jim Stinehelfer
Unregistered User
(7/18/01 10:23 pm)
CSR engine power
I think your numbers of 220 to 240 hp are correct
The Toyota FA engines may be a little more . The Mazdas are now in the 235 hp range after they were choked down this year. They also went up in price to maintain this level. $12k might be a little conservative for any of these engines. The Cosworths are about 235 and most VW are between 220 and 230. Modified MC engine are looking very strong now. A highly modified Hayabusa 1300( bored and stroked to about 1500 ccs) in a Radical won the June Sprints.... drove away from all the rest of us. Very smooth and fast combination. They advertize 252 hp and the rumors are they can get more. It is obvious that a light weight CSR with a MC engine will be very competitive and cost effective.
Wally Butler
Unregistered User
(7/20/01 6:42 am)
Old S2000 chassis as CSR
I like the start of this thread, particularly because that is the route I went down. My car is a Lola T8690. I converted from the 2L Pinto engine to Toyota. The conversion was very easy without much redesign of the car.
I believe that S2000 chassis can be competitive in CSR. Although everyone was very excited about what the Radical did at the June Sprint, a Lola S2000-Toyota CSR (Tom Jagemann) still holds the qualifying track record and a Beasley-Mazda car holds the race record.
A great idea to increase the fields in CSR.
Wally Butler
#67 CSR
Ted James
Unregistered User
(7/21/01 1:02 pm)
HP
The Radical HP is rated as follows: Dyno numbers + 10 to 12% for transmission loss to get crank HP. They then add 4% for ram air. A counter shaft number of 216 HP is very reasonable and they may be able to make up to 225 at the counter shaft.
I would think that a 1300cc Hybusa or Blackbird would make a very competive converson for a S2000. At 1300cc it would run at 1200lbs. Stock engines complete run from $2500 to $3500 and would have about 180hp at the counter shaft.
Re: HP
The Busa has been in bike mags as high as 225 rear wheel HP (racing they had to reduce hp to 208 because they couldn't keep tires on the bike). Mild tuning at 182hp and 108 ft lbs (for street use). Using conservative numbers (15%) the 1300 Busa should range between 214 and 264 at the crank.
I believe Radical uses 15% and 4% for their numbers which may be a little optimistic.
Re: HP
Great idea about installing a bike motor in an S2 except that for some cars the conversion might be difficult. Most S2 cars use the transmission as a stressed member of the rear suspension. Replace that with the bike motor and the transmission goes away. Now what? The bike motor can take some stress, but not to the same extent as the cast iron pinto motor and hewland.
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